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Post by radicalted on Dec 30, 2014 14:27:43 GMT -8
If you could reduce the randomness of turn order this would be a 10/10 game. I really do love it but its annoying that you can lose to a coinflip basically. Just lost a league match where it came down to me and the other guy hitting each others last card for 1 damage each turn with equal health but he randomly got the first strike on the last turn so I lost.
I can't really expect it since it would require probably significant work on all cards, but maybe add another layer of speed on both sides like a big turtle and a rabbit for very fast and very slow. Again, I love the game but it is slightly irksome that there is that bit of luck in this so far primarily strategy game.
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Post by Admin on Dec 30, 2014 14:36:03 GMT -8
We've thought about doing something like making the guy with the lowest health go first, or highest health, or something like that to make it more predictable, but I'm not sure if that's really any better. Although that would technically remove luck it would still be something you can't really plan for without going to the lab and running that exact scenario - I'm not sure it would add any skill or strategy.
Another layer of speed might alleviate but wouldn't fix the problem.
Something we maybe need to think about more.
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fitch
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Post by fitch on Dec 30, 2014 15:01:21 GMT -8
You'd still have randomness in situations where people had equal characters if it was by health or 2nd degree speeds. I don't think it matters much, except perhaps during the campaign, you'll experience a randomness (not truly but practically) in league and draft play since you have no idea if or where your opponent will place a ghostwalker or mountain troll so sometimes you just get screwed or get lucky. But perhaps the person with a lower ranking would get some kind of advantage? Or the computer player in campaign always goes first? Or maybe it could alternate who goes first each time there is a tie in speed, but have the lower rank go faster the first time?
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Post by xuande on Jan 2, 2015 9:09:04 GMT -8
I disagree. Take out that layer of RNG (which is still going to exist anyway, for example Fire Sage is very popular in higher end League play, and whichever team gets theirs to double-cast first in Round 2 almost always wins), and you've got a sterile game where you can always tell pre-fight which team is going to win.
Being able to recognize that you lost a round in draft due to several missed coinflips, and not because your team matched up badly, is a skill worth having.
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Post by Zscout on Jan 2, 2015 9:22:30 GMT -8
I second what Xuande said; the RNG keeps the game exciting at high level - especially in drafts. Don't take it away.
I've had a few fights with the top three (Bees?, Vamp, and Kissmenow) where we have split rounds and the winner was left to RNG. Take that away and you are left with the luck of card selection and board placement as the only random factors.
If one player has a superior draft, it is nice to still be a threat as an underdog with a superior RNG. (And painful when it goes against you!)
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Post by xuande on Jan 2, 2015 14:54:58 GMT -8
Draft is currently not Elo-based so much as it is a contest of who plays more. I tried competing for #1 for awhile (kept trading with Chessman for it), until I realized this - so many players are so awful at Draft play that its going to take a very long time before people reach their "actual" rank (and it doesn't help that Campaign pays way better, or that Draft is virtually dead during the time I'm most often on). I believe Chessman came to a similar conclusion, and now you see players like the ones you listed topping draft - even though they (Kissmenow and Vamp, anyway) have fairly awful League teams.
I kind of wish that demo players could play Draft more often, maybe three times daily. I get tired of sitting in Draft queue, so instead I grind Campaign. I enjoy Draft, sure, but its hard to find opponents.
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Post by Zscout on Jan 2, 2015 19:30:22 GMT -8
I didn't know there were leagues for draft. I thought it was one giant queue.
Anyhow, I don't share your experience as I usually have to wait at most only a minute or so before finding an opponent. With the holidays, I have been on all hours day and night. EST am is slow, but there are a handful of players on around the clock.
That said, new opponents are still learning the game and are pretty bad. There are a handful of good players though and I would say that 50% of my matches are competitive.
The one thing I wish they could change is lowering the selection time during link disconnects. It sucks waiting 30 seconds x 12, plus 3 minutes x 2 for the match to complete against a ghost opponent. Not sure how that would be feasible without also being exploitable.
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Post by Zscout on Jan 2, 2015 19:37:51 GMT -8
Nevermind to draft leagues. I misread your post.
I'd encourage you to stick with draft queues while you campaign. Just make sure you clear the fight before clicking "go" or else the game will hang.
You and I have battled a few times and I found it fun. (Smiley here)
I wish more people played, but I don't have too much issue with finding something to occupy me between matches. Lab, evolve, or whatever.
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fitch
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Post by fitch on Jan 2, 2015 21:33:19 GMT -8
I agree with Xuande about both comments on the draft thing. It's mostly for fun. If you get screwed with a lame set of cards and your opponent opens with vampire lord and Ulthur they'll have an advantage but you can get lucky despite your crap cards. Also at first I was at like 1050 and would win about 2/3 of the time time against some people (can't remember their names) who had like 1200+, after doing lots of draft half the time they're basically free points because you see someone with "Rating 1000" and obviously the guy who never played in a draft before will lose. Though I usually play in the middle of the night or early morning since I'm a graveyard shift guy.
It would be cool if we could have a sort of collaborative lab. For example if I set up a team with the 3 fire casters, spell fork, a water wall and some garbage that costs 1 and can't find a viable team that beats it regularly I could post it and Xuande sees it and goes "Psh my mountain troll + frenzy team will destroy that" he could post it as a reply. Include a note maybe, which would allow you to do Coliseum type stuff "Only green vs fire mage/spell fork" and realize it's impossible without a mountain troll maybe (or maybe not). All useful stuff especially for the higher level players I'd think.
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Post by xuande on Jan 2, 2015 23:48:06 GMT -8
Yeah, I prefer the late night EST hours myself.
If you need an example, here's a League team that I've ran in some form over the last few Leagues, though not currently: Spell Fork - Bat : [Back] Fire Sage : Skeleton : Water Wall : [Back] Water Wizardress. Its record is in the vicinity of 80-1, with the one loss coming from a lost Round 2 Fire Sage coinflip vs a similar team. The idea behind this particular team is to reduce variance - Fire Sage has a lot of tank support, plus a healer, plus a flying blocker (that, importantly, is the tank only taking one hit per round). Its possible to run setups with cards like Burning Adept, Soulstealer Lich, or even Burning Initiate to speed things up, but doing so always comes at a cost of being less tanky, or putting more pressure on the tanks you do have. One added benefit of having a healer is that you give yourself a chance vs Lv4 Mountain Troll - should it come down to a situation where Fire Sage is dead or disabled, she beats Mountain Troll in a 1v1 or similar situation simply through low damage pokes between full heals.
There are downsides too, the most notable being that it is possible to out-tank even three rounds in a row of Fire Sage+Spell Fork damage (a Lv3 or Lv4 Water Wall allows a Fire Sage to cast three rounds in a row), and stabilize afterward. The metagame is still developing, though, and its entirely possible that a better all-around team type will show up. I'm working on a couple of ideas myself that look promising, once I get enough Evolve fodder for a reasonable amount of leveling.
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fitch
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Post by fitch on Jan 3, 2015 0:54:31 GMT -8
Yeah, I prefer the late night EST hours myself. If you need an example, here's a League team that I've ran in some form over the last few Leagues, though not currently: Spell Fork - Bat : [Back] Fire Sage : Skeleton : Water Wall : [Back] Water Wizardress. Its record is in the vicinity of 80-1, with the one loss coming from a lost Round 2 Fire Sage coinflip vs a similar team. The idea behind this particular team is to reduce variance - Fire Sage has a lot of tank support, plus a healer, plus a flying blocker (that, importantly, is the tank only taking one hit per round). Its possible to run setups with cards like Burning Adept, Soulstealer Lich, or even Burning Initiate to speed things up, but doing so always comes at a cost of being less tanky, or putting more pressure on the tanks you do have. One added benefit of having a healer is that you give yourself a chance vs Lv4 Mountain Troll - should it come down to a situation where Fire Sage is dead or disabled, she beats Mountain Troll in a 1v1 or similar situation simply through low damage pokes between full heals. There are downsides too, the most notable being that it is possible to out-tank even three rounds in a row of Fire Sage+Spell Fork damage (a Lv3 or Lv4 Water Wall allows a Fire Sage to cast three rounds in a row), and stabilize afterward. The metagame is still developing, though, and its entirely possible that a better all-around team type will show up. I'm working on a couple of ideas myself that look promising, once I get enough Evolve fodder for a reasonable amount of leveling. Yeah my concerns are mostly about the metagame. I was trying Spell Fork - Initiate/Adept/(back)Vislav/Bat/Water Wall, all level 3 (except Vlislav), and it was common to have 2-3 guys dead in the first round, definitely by the second. I'd worry about Mountain Troll and stuff like that but realistically how many people are doing that? There are like 30% people who know what they're doing and the rest are new to it so they build a team out of 20 cards or fewer or don't realize that Spell fork is dominating most regular teams. Basically if you have a mountain troll, you're crippling some other part of the spell fork team, and if it isn't spell fork then it's probably getting beat. That's been my experience in league and/or lab at least, I don't have too many rank 4, and only my main guys are at rank 3 so it's hard to test everything. Except for last night, of course, where I changed my league team to include only Vislav so I could play around with evolutions and after I was satisfied I logged off. This morning I went to check league status and OH SHIT! I'd forgotten to set my team back up and lost two battles with only Vislav! Lol oh well, whatever just coins right? Perhaps after several leagues enough people will do Mountain Troll or Antimage stuff that spell fork is no longer the most effective, who knows. It would be nice if the Lab allowed you to test any rank of evolution for any card you've owned. Sometimes I'll evolve something, say Water Wall to max rank my league team, and use up Shieldbearer. Later I'll want to run a test and have no Shieldbearers and can only use upper rank Water Walls. I don't mind farming some stuff to evolve characters I am using, but I don't want to spend endless hours evolving stuff just to see what they can do I'd rather know what I'm going for and farm in order to acquire that guy.
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Post by xuande on Jan 3, 2015 18:47:24 GMT -8
30% is quite a generous figure, I'd say in any given league that there's less than five people with a shot at winning. However, if you join late (not into the first League possible in a new set), it seems the player quality drops dramatically - as I saw in my last League, where I joined a day late and took an uncontested first place anyway.
I am actually testing Mountain Giant in my current Spell Fork deck. Yes, that does mean making some concessions (namely, settling for only Fire Sage or two lesser casters...or running Sage+Initiate and not having a flying blocker), but until the intermediate part of League runs stuff better than Beast Tamer, I'm not too worried about it. It should be interesting to see how well it goes.
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fitch
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Post by fitch on Jan 4, 2015 1:04:45 GMT -8
Coincidentally in the league I just joined (I notice you're not in it so no conflict of interest) I was going to try exactly as you describe. Fork/Initiate/Troll/Sage/Bat/Wall. With the all 3 mages usually it'd kill 2 enemies in the first round unless they had a troll, now it likely won't start killing until the 2nd round, which wouldn't normally be bad but then my opponent could even have a falcon in the wrong spot and I'm screwed. I guess we'll see how it plays out.
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Post by xuande on Jan 4, 2015 8:59:20 GMT -8
I'm using Bat Swarm over Initiate, as that version tested best vs other Fire Sage setups in the Lab. Otherwise, yeah, pretty much the same setup.
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fitch
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Post by fitch on Jan 4, 2015 13:05:02 GMT -8
I'm using Bat Swarm over Initiate, as that version tested best vs other Fire Sage setups in the Lab. Otherwise, yeah, pretty much the same setup. Oh yeah I'd actually typed from memory and mixed it up slightly, The correct order is Fork+Troll/Sage/Initiate/Bat/Wall. I haven't spent too much time in Lab with its various permutations but I figured having them adjacent would all but guarantee at least one kill in round one, not sure if that's worth it since it's very unlikely they'll kill one in round two (unless they have like a hasted falcon against the Sage). But we'll see, I'll post results in a day or two.
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